Anyone that is attempting to produce something to be shared with the world there is a question that has to be answered.
Which part of me am I going to offer?
The Crux Questions
1) Are you going to spend time producing content or creating (insert your Art) that I think the world will like?
2) Do you create what you want to create because it makes you happy, but may not satisfy your Google Analytics aspirations?
3) Is your goal a lot of followers or a highly engaged audience?
What if what the world really needs is the real you?
In today’s Podcast:
In today’s show Jon Dale and I have a discussion about living the truest version of your instead of trying to figure out what people want.
There are pitfalls to this:
- What if no one likes what you create?
- What will people think if you are authentic instead of entirely polished?
- How do you know when to mix topics e.g. Business, Sport, Family?
- Do you pay attention to metrics or follow your heart’s leading?
- 24 HR digital fast -How & Why?
- How to compete with the 160M other bloggers.
- As you live the truest version of yourself other people will be liberated to do the same.
- How to start ignoring graphs and charts and increase your impact.
Some of our mentors that we discuss in this episode.:
- Michael Hyatt
- Tim Ferriss
- Spence Smith
- Seth Godin
- Gary Vaynerchuck
- John Eldredge
- Morgan Snyder
- John Bergquist
Wild at Heart by John Eldredge
Our Greatest Fear —Marianne Williamson
Click to Listen
Aaron McHugh (00:11): This is Aaron McHugh, and if you're looking for a thoughtful ally in your journey of Work Life and Play this podcast for you,
(00:32): This is Aaron McHugh, and today I'm here with Jon Dale. Jon and I had a chance to grab some breakfast this morning. We've been long-standing friends, and Jon's been a great ally both personally as well as professionally. And the conversation we had this morning was about us as men who kind of occupy our feet in two different worlds. One is the business world and what we do vocationally as what, as well as what we pursue professionally. And then the other is our personal beliefs about worldview as it relates to our spiritual beliefs about the kingdom of God and how we navigate both those. So I'm here with Jon today and we decided to go ahead and run back and flip the mic and continue our conversation and really run the risk of telling this dual story in both of our arenas or maybe more heavily business than they are spiritual in terms of our online presence. But we thought we'd go ahead and just share this story with others as well. So, Jon, welcome.
Jon Dale (01:52): Thanks. It's fun to be here. I'm a huge fan of your show. And it's funny as we drove to breakfast this morning I opened up the podcast app on my iPhone and was looking for something to listen as I drove down the pass and was really hoping for a new Aaron McHugh episode and didn't find one. So I actually sent out sort of a tweet of desperation, and maybe what this is is payback. It's like, Okay, Jon, if you want another episode, come and be part of that. So thanks for the invite.
Aaron (02:24): Yeah. So Jon, why don't you just recap then, maybe even just start with the context of how we know each other and how we've both encouraged each other in this online arena, whether podcasts or blogs or guys we follow. And maybe let's just start there.
Jon (02:46): Sure. So Aaron and I actually met here in this building in fact, five or six years ago. We were at a calling intensive that a friend of ours Gary Barlow was putting on. And Aaron and Morgan Snyder and myself having another one of our good friends were part of that small group. And so we spent two or three days just sort of unpacking our life story looking at sort of the fingerprints of God and our life and trying to understand what calling was about and what life was about and that larger context. And we struck up a friendship at that point. That was probably 40 pounds ago from me. So since then Aaron's managed to drag me into, I was gonna say kicking and screaming, but actually pretty willingly into doing some triathlons and, and Ironman and that kind of stuff.
(03:42): And so Aaron's been pretty instrumental in my life just in a lot of really exciting ways. And in the years since then I've ended up leaving an advertising business that I ran and starting a consulting firm. I end went and spent six months with Seth Goden and did his alternative MBA program. Aaron did Seth's Medicine Bowl program a couple of years ago. And so we've just sort of had this interesting parallel journey both from sort of our faith worldview side of things, but also we've both been exploring social media and entrepreneurialism and business. And so we've had many a great cup of coffee with fun conversation and our families have gotten to know each other a little bit. So this morning was, was one more of those conversations.
(04:37): And Aaron is one of those guys where we go pretty deep pretty quickly. So typical conversation starts off with how's everything going? Just like any, any other conversation would go during the week. But what I love about conversations with Aaron is that within 20-30 minutes we're getting to the deep stuff, the stuff that really matters. And today we had what I think was just a particularly interesting conversation around this idea of who are we as men, but also who are we in our online presence? And both of us have been blogging for a little while and have experimented with other online mediums. And I think most people looking from the outside in would say, Jon Dale is sort of a marketing social media guy, obviously pretty influenced by Seth Godden, and we suspect he might believe in Jesus. Right? I've sort of been pretty careful not to mix my faith message with what I put out there on a business perspective. And our conversation this morning was challenging that whole idea.
(05:55): So here we are.
Aaron (05:56): Here we are challenging now, right? So Jon and I joke about having man crushes and Jon's one of those guys that in the same respect, has done a lot in the world of social media and has been a daring and brave entrepreneur. And he's a good guy. And we spend time on bikes together. We spend time on runs together in the pool together and coffee and beers and the whole deal. Hence the bromance. So the conversation we were having today, which was isn't unlike other ones that we have had it, what seemed to strike us though was that the question we were asking of each other we felt like was maybe a more universal or shared question that other people may benefit from us dialoguing about in a recorded session.
(06:56): So basically here was the crux of the question. Anyone who is attempting to produce something to be shared with the world, whether that's a painting, whether that's photography, whether that's blogging, whether that's podcasting, whether that's a business that you run and you start, whether that's a consulting firm, whatever that may be, there is this question about which part of me am I going to offer? And each of us have our professional us, ourselves, we have our personal us, family, friends, we have our hobbies or external kind of activities, extracurricular things. And one of the things we were talking about was when you're actually projecting your voice and in John and I's context of blogs or a podcast, in this case, let's just say roughly there's 160 million other people out there today and counting by the minute that are producing a blog.
(07:59): And let's just say if podcasting is experiencing an insurgent increase, maybe there's a third that many, I don't know what the number would be, but nevertheless, do you spend time on trying to create content you think people will like, or do you spend time on creating content that you like? And which part of that's more earnest and true? We were talking about results and Google analytics and “if I produce this kind of post, I get this many results. If I produce this kind of post, I get that many results”. So where we started going was, this is actually a more common conversation than we think. So let's flip the mic and let's just go back and retrace that conversation again. All right, Jon, do I tell the “I'm a triathlete story” and “I'm a business guy story”, and oh, by the way, I believe in Jesus. Or do I mute the, “I believe in Jesus” and “I'm a triathlete story” and only tell the “I'm a business guy story”,
Jon (09:00): So in working with clients over the years, I'm often encouraging 'em to blog, right? And the conventional wisdom would be the first thing you need to do when you decide to start blogging is figuring out, what the hell am I gonna blog? And so what happens is, I think most people, they look out there and they say, Okay, I'm CEO of big company in X industry. I need to put content out there that's relevant to that industry, and that's what I'm gonna write about. And I'm gonna build a tribe, I'm gonna build a following. I'm gonna build a platform to create a body of content that's interesting in that specific field. The thing that's fascinating though is when I look at the content I really enjoy, some of my favorite posts by Michael Hyatt, for example, have nothing to do with publishing or platforms, and they have to do with barefoot running.
(10:01): Which I happen to also enjoy. And another guy who's one of my favorites is Spencer Smith. Spence works with artists over compassion. And he blogs about business stuff, leadership stuff, triathlon stuff. And what I actually enjoy is the variety of it. And then you take that away from blogging and you say, “Well, who do I enjoy reading? One of the guys I've really enjoyed, I don't agree with everything he says, but I like Tim Ferris. So Tim writes the four-hour work week, which just hits me at the core of the whole entrepreneurial thing. And then he writes a book about how to get in shape and have better sex. And then his next book is how
Aaron (10:40): To cook Better,
Jon (10:41): The four-hour Cook. And actually what I love is Tim and I love the way he communicates, and I love, he wouldn't think of it this way, but the piece of the kingdom that he brings, and for him, it's almost like the subject matter is completely incidental.
Aaron (10:57): Which is whatever he is passionate about, right then. And so it seems to be, let's say we'll put ourselves in Tim Ferris's shoes that he could give to hoots about who's interested, As much as he cares about just the fact that he's interested. Right now I'm passionate about how do I get in shape in less than four hours a week, I'm gonna assume I'm gonna write the book and then people will love it or they hate it, right? I don't care how many of each, I'm just passionate about the fact that I want to get in shape
Jon (11:30): And what we get is two pieces, right? Because we get how to get in shape.That piece. But the other piece we get is Tim,
Aaron (11:39): Right,
Jon (11:40): And Tim can't help it, whether he's writing about four-hour work week, four-hour Buddy, or Four Hour Chef, he's gonna talk about like hacking, learning. And other stuff that we get the essence of who he is, We get what he is passionate about, and the subject matter is sort of incidental. He could have written a book about learning to sail and,
Aaron (12:02): But all of a sudden the subject matter becomes more interesting. Because it's a real guy, I'm not reading a how-to book and it’s not a Wikipedia article. I'm reading a guy's journey and all of a sudden if I was learning about sailing, my excitement about sailing grows. Because it's a real guy, A real guy with a real story, with a real family, with real issues. And I think that's where our conversation was going today is Okay, Jon has been writing a blog for four or five years now?
Jon (12:34): Yeah, it's probably longer than that. With the time I took off the last two years is Yeah, probably five or so years before that.
Aaron (12:40): So Jon has been writing a blog for five-plus years. Jon has been working in social media both as a consultant as well as kind of just a “hacker” yourself and has made it work. Jon was featured in Michael Hyatt's book, The Platform, about how to build a platform. And Jon was part of being a consultant with Michael in some of the early years while he was still at Thomas Nelson. So Jon is a highly qualified guy in that arena. And where, as a result, then we were talking about, “okay, Jon, you have this platform you've built, right?” You have this audience now who wants to listen to Jon Dale, the social media expert, the Seth Godden MBA graduate, the Michael Hyatt chapter 48, whatever it is. And so you've built this up, and so now is it in somehow, is it treason or is it a bait and switch to now change your message and now start talking about not only social media and triathlon, but personal beliefs and those kinds of things, And does that somehow matter more?
(13:49): That's what I want to talk about, regardless of whether or not people wanna listen, those people you've aggregated and built and attracted over time? Or do you have to stay true to the original message that you crafted five-plus years ago?
Jon (14:02): Right. So one of the luxuries I had is I've not really blogged for a couple of years. I've had like five or six posts in a couple of guest posts and podcasts over the last couple of years because we've been doing other things. And so I kind of feel like there's that unsubscribe button. Anyone can hit it at any time And if we've moved past the point where the goal is just huge numbers, Cause it used to be that's all we cared about. Just look at any of these people that have hundreds of thousands of followers on Twitter, and a few of them did it genuinely. And most people game the system right Now, thankfully Twitter's cracked down on that. But the goal was lots and lots of people. I think what we're saying is the goal is a highly engaged audience.
(14:46): People that were offering genuine value to that they enjoy what they're getting. And so the place I landed as I was driving over here, and I actually called Aaron on the phone and was like, Hey, let me tell you what I've been thinking, cuz we ended our conversation over breakfast with, Well, let's get together and do a podcast at some point. And here we are two hours later doing it. And the reason I did is cause I called Aaron and I said, Hey Aaron, remember that quote at the end of Wild At Heart? For those of you that don't know, John Eldridge wrote a book called Wild at Heart for Men. Great book would highly recommend it. But at the end of the book, what he says is “don't ask yourself what the world needs.” “ask yourself, what makes you come alive and go do that. Because what the world needs is people who are fully alive”
(15:39): And what I suddenly thought is what if we applied that to the content that we put out? What if we said, what are the things that we're passionate about? What are the things that make us come alive? And if we'll be alive, maybe what the world really needs is that. the last thing they need is Jon Dale to make one more post or podcast about Facebook and Twitter. Seriously. Go listen to like Gary or Chris or whoever, there are tons of people talking about that stuff. But I think what people, what may be, and this is sort of the thing we're testing today,
Aaron (16:13): This is the question
Jon (16:15): Is what if we just shared what we're passionate about? And know what, maybe a third of the time it is stuff related to business and marketing and customer service and those things. Cause I love that stuff. But what if I actually shared some of the struggles I was having inwith my kids or in my marriage and what we were learning through counseling we were going through, or I was in the ER three weeks ago. What if I talked about that and what I'm learning about health would people care? That's the question,
Aaron (16:44): Well, and it's almost two questions. One question is; “what makes you come alive?” And let's just go back to blogging. If there are 160 million other people writing a blog and the differentiation of what you might say about Facebook or Twitter is gonna be lost largely in the mass of what other people are saying. And arguably they have bigger audiences, bigger tribes. And some have less, some have more. But what we were saying is, that there's only one Jon Dale, and there's only one Aaron McHugh. There's only one, you the listener. So maybe what the world needs is for us to just be the truest version of us. In those contexts. Now, you know a lot about social media and so as you write about social media but you don't hide. And I think that was where my part of, the conversation was coming from is I'm newer at this offering myself to strangers, than you are.
(17:51): You've been at this for a while. So I kind of have a luxury, maybe in some ways, of figuring out this identity before I have this big following. but nevertheless, there's this crux of which version of Aaron do I offer? Do I offer the here's my work experience, here's the software, here's my hunches and ideas about social media? And oh, by the way, I do triathlon and some really crazy endurance events. Or do I keep the endurance events separate and that's on a totally different blog, or do I just take advice or give advice to friends when they ask? And what we were saying is, you know what, actually the, the best version maybe is more of the Tim Ferriss version is just, “Hey, this is who I am”.
Jon (18:41): Right?
Aaron (18:42): Hey, if you like it, great. If you don't like it, great. But this is who I am. This is what I'm excited about today. And therefore here's my message. And then allow the whole audience metric thing, the Google analytics thing to be as it is. Because you're most gratified by being the truest version of You
Jon (18:59): And if I can help one person, if there's someone actually listening to this right now, which it would blow my mind if there was, but there's
(19:10): But let's pretend that somebody has got 10 minutes or whatever we are into this thing And is still listening. I love that. I love that person. if you're listening, I love you. Yeah. And, what I want is for you to be maybe just a little bit inspired, maybe to think, Okay, it's not about what I do today, but it's about who I am today. What can I be, how can I impact those around me? And that's what I want to have happen. I don't, I couldn't give a rats ass if whoever's listening gets another thousand followers on Twitter. But if they will live out who they're supposed to be, who God created them to be, and if that'll impact them and their happiness and their kids and their wife, like that really matters.
(19:58): And that would be my hope. And I just think, you know, we don't need a bunch more Seth Goddens or Jon Dales or Aaron McHugh’s. Do you like how I put us all in that same cap? Cause, we're kind of, you know, that kind, We don't need more of those. what we need is for people to be who it is that they were designed to be. And that stuff I love exploring and, and it's not the stuff I talk about in my blog, but it's the kind of thing when I'm sitting around a campfire at my house with a group of guys and we're drinking scotch, smoking a cigar, or in my case a pipe, like the conversations we have are about how do we become the people we were designed to be? And what does happiness look like? What does it look like to be a good husband? What does it look like to be a good friend? What does it look like to be a good parent? Or maybe what does it look like to train well, what's the connection between our bodies and our spirit life and, and all of these things? And I wonder if there's other people out there that would love to be part of that same conversation.
Aaron (21:02): Yeah. And then maybe as we're saying this, maybe there's plenty of books on social media, just again, as an example
Jon (21:12): Like a whole section at the bookstore now. It's ridiculous
Aaron (21:14): So maybe let's just assume there's enough. And it isn't that Jon isn't qualified to speak into that subject area, but maybe it's the way in which you could, So yes you could give seminars and day-long consulting on social media and you should continue to. But maybe what we're saying is the best version is to also talk about the tension of social media. And we were talking about it at breakfast this morning, that yes, there's this technological piece of social media and yes, it has these functions for marketing and for business, but also here's the personal lifestyle trap of it. Here's a lifestyle trap of always having your phone on. my son is 17, he just got an iPhone for Christmas, and at any given moment All four members of our family can be in a screen.
Jon (22:08): Right? You can literally be in the same room. All four of you looking at that little screen. It's a beautiful screen, right?
Aaron (22:14): but what's the consequence? So in the context of social media, How many people are talking about the lifestyle intrusion, In the disruption Of social media and actually what it does to our life Now, you and I can talk about the business part of it all day long, And how we believe in it, And it's a great tool and it's a great mechanism. Here's how to use it. Here's not how to use it, but how few people are talking about. So we're going back to our breakfast conversation about the crux of those kinds of “which voice do we use?” Because when we're off mic or off blog, these are the conversations we have, or if we're hanging out with some buddies having scotch or we're even with a customer for the day,
(22:56): We might venture into these kinds of topics, But our public version of ourselves in some way, especially me, I've been muting this part of me because I'm thinking you on the other end don't want to hear it. You just want to hear about one more guy who has an opinion about social media. And what we were saying is actually maybe that may be entirely false. You may rather have a conversation about lifestyle and social media and your kids. Than about one more trick of the trade of how to use it better.
Jon (23:24): Cause I, you know, I spent the last five years trying to convince people, big brands, names that we've all heard of To get engaged on social media. But the truth is, I spent the last year unplugging myself. So a little example of that, my friend John Burque, challenged me a few months ago to this thing that we called a 24-hour digital fast. And so once a week at whatever time we turn our phones off for 24 hours, I actually do it until the following morning, like 36 hours. It's awesome. I have to think about where I'm driving instead of having Siri tell me, I don't know what's happening in the news. I don't know what's happening on Facebook. I don't answer my phone. I don't check my email. And I have conversations with people
Aaron (24:16): Eyeball to eyeball.
Jon (24:17): without the interruption. And the funny thing was like the first time I did it, it was panic, what if I got an email that really mattered?. And you know what's funny is I didn't. Like I didn't get emails that really mattered. At least not, that didn't need to be answered till the following day. So Aaron's like taking his shirt off now, which we talk about the whole romance thing Is taking it a little far
Aaron (24:42): With the t-shirt still on
Jon (24:43): Okay, good. So, going once a week without digital of any kind has been awesome. it's been absolutely life-changing, but how do I tell that story and at the same time say everybody's shooting Facebook and Twitter? Cause the truth is, I believe both.
Aaron (25:02): That's exactly right. So how can I be the guy who's the counselor to big brands, people who write books about social media. You've sat under their feet, you've sat in their conference rooms a whole deal. I know how to use it well, and I talk about the pitfalls of it and here's how to recover from it. That I personally, what you're saying is take a Sabbath, a 24 hour Sabbath every week. From all things electronic or just smartphones?
Jon (25:28): I turn my phone off. I don't do phone calls. If someone needs to reach me, they text or call Amy. And she's my assistant for the day. I'll watch a movie or something with the kids. I don't go grouse the internet. I don't check out what's on Craigslist or eBay. I fast from digital. Right. And so I used to do it on Sundays. But I realized that in church I actually like taking notes and stuff and looking up stuff. So I'm moving it to Saturday. So if you're trying to reach me on Saturday, sorry. It’s been really good
Aaron (25:59): But you could drive to your house and knock on your front door. You'd have social interaction that way.
Jon (26:03): Or you can text my wife. you don't ban the whole family. I just do that. another thing I've done and started within the last month is I don't check my email before I've had breakfast. So I get up early great. Like 5:00 AM or whatever most days. And I have some quiet time and I read and then I go work out and while I'm working out, I drink my protein shake. I don't check my email until after that. Because what I found was I used to get up, reach over and grab my phone and sit in bed so the first 30 minutes of my day was me in bed, email, Twitter, Facebook, reading crap online.
Aaron (26:40): not setting a tone.
Jon (26:42): It’s not the right way to start your day
Aaron (26:43): A good friend of ours you mentioned, another guy here is Morgan Snyder. We just saw him on the way in and one of the things that he talked about related to this social media unplugged piece is one of the things you find out is how unimportant you really are when you unplug from all that because the world goes on without you. It's actually fine if you don't send a tweet that day. If you don't do an Instagram, if you don't add a like on Facebook, if you don't text back your friends.
(27:17): The world goes on.
Jon (27:17): Here's what happened two years ago. I quit blogging for a year when we started Moola. I quit for a year and I said I'm done for a year. Cause I got other focuses. And you know what, two funny things happened. One is nobody was like, Oh, hey Jon, we really need your blog posts. The other thing that happened was I probably got like a dozen emails from people through the year, like, Hey man, I'm loving your blog, really enjoying it. Thanks for all you do. I'm like, what in the world I haven't posted in a year? Right. Cause they would go back and look at my archives
Aaron (27:45): The archives.
Jon (27:46): But the truth is you're right. I think we tend to live in this story, Where we're the most important thing. And the truth is there's a much, much bigger story happening, Where we play this vital role, but we're not the center of the story in a way we think we are. I mean that's probably a whole nother conversation
Aaron (28:07): So going back to Jon and I's worldview you know, our shared belief is that all this stuff in business is phenomenal. We love it. It works. It's worth exploring. It's worth learning, being a perpetual, lifelong learner. It's worth pursuing. there is influence and voice, all these things it can gain. And we also realize that there's also a bigger story going on and that we're actually in a bigger story and that a bigger story is being told. And we're part of that story. But all this business stuff is just context. It's not the thing. And so as Jon and I are, are talking about today is saying, we love business, we love marketing, we love podcasts, we love all these things, but we really care about his relationship.
(29:00): We really care about finding our unique voice. And instead of caring about going back to the Google analytics like we talked about today, we're, especially me, I think I can feel the gravitational pull towards being my truest self and disregarding the graphs and charts right. Of each individual pulse, Of a post or whatever it may be. Cuz at the end of the day, we want to be successful. We want it to matter. And, I think what we want is for our voice to have influence and we do want to change the world we live in. So there is a tension of I want to create things and offer things to the world that are valuable. And that are professional and all those things and appealing. But I don't want to get sucked into the trap in the downward spiral of, like you said, find what the world needs and go do that. I wanna be the truest version of me. And then if it's a limited subset of people who care about that, then that's a better version of my life than if it's just fubar and we're offering, you get a bunch of graphs and charts that look pretty good, but it's only half of your story or a third of your story or an eighth of the real version of you.
Jon (30:11): Because what I don't want for the folks listening, if anyone is listening again, thank you, I love you.
Aaron (30:17): If We're up to three, that's really great
Jon (30:18): but for those people listening, I don't want them to think, well I just wanna go become another Aaron McHugh, Michael Hyatt, Chris Brogan. What I want them to do is the journey we've been on for the last four or five years, which is figuring out who is it that God created you to be. Not what does he want you to do, but who are you supposed to be? And then if you can go and be that person, it doesn't matter what you're doing, your life will have the effect it was designed to have. And I think that's exciting.
Aaron (30:56): And would you agree too that that's not dependent on vocation? that's what we talked about breakfast too. It Doesn't matter what job you're in. Doesn't matter what career field you're in
Jon (31:06): You take a Seth Godden or a Tim Ferris or a Joseph from the Bible, and it doesn't matter if you put them in a blogger's seat or in prison, they're gonna be the same person and that is gonna result in doors opening for them. I love the story of Joseph out of the scriptures because here's this guy who has this dream that God's given him. And it doesn't matter what happens. he gets thrown in a pit, he gets put in jail, he's a servant in a house and he's just himself. he's just the person he was created to be. And because of that, he always rises to prominence. And I think that's been sort of the message of the last five years for me is it's not about getting the right job, it's not about getting the right client or starting the right business. It's can I be who God created me to be.
Aaron (31:53): And as a result, like we said, you cannot alter the effect of your life for greater or for less when you're living into that kind of story. When you just believe, I'm gonna show up and do vocation thing every day, or I'm gonna be my kid's soccer coach, or I'm gonna be a blogger, whatever those contexts are, but I'm gonna be the same version of me in every single one of those stories where there isn't a chameleon effect of your life where you're not one guy at work and one guy with your friends and one guy with your family. You are consistently the same person that shows up. And you have that same thread throughout that at the end of the day you believe that yes, this is what I do to make a living.
(32:37): But it isn't the summary of me. You know, the marketing advice that you offer isn't the summary of who you are as a man. It's a component and an aspect. But the deeper part of the reason why people would hire you for consulting is cuz of the man that you are. And oh, by the way, you happen to be really good at marketing. You may get in the door because of the marketing or because of the social media, but it's because of the who behind all of that. What that actually makes it where you have a greater effect. And I think that's where that Joseph's story matters as we were talking about this morning, is at the end of the day, Joseph's story, he was elevated and promoted by God in his timing. Nothing. Joseph did change the timing in the story. He was subject to a bigger story.
Jon (33:27): He couldn't have picked a better route to become leader of the known world
Aaron (33:31): And he couldn't have picked being in a dungeon for two years.
Jon (33:35): Nothing he did Was his choosing. In fact, every time it happened from the outside it looked like a setback. But the truth is, it was part of a bigger story. And what you said earlier about some people end up putting on one persona for one thing and they're another guy when they're at home with their family and this that and the other. We all see that. We all know people, we think of it, but there are people that live well on the other side. So I mean I've had the privilege of getting to know Mike Hyatt over the years and I've been with him in his home with his wife and his family and I've seen him on stage and I've been with him in the boardroom and like he's the same person. I mean obviously, he treats his wife and kids with a tenderness that maybe he is a little different than he when he is the ceo, but he's the same guy and like Gary, vain shock, right?
(34:22): So sitting across from Gary having sushi, he's the same, larger than life, let's just put it that way, person when you're sitting across the table from him having sushi as he is when he is on stage or you listen to him when he is on the phone with my buddy Levi doing an interview. I love that there are people, whether they share our faith perspective, worldview or not. there are people who do a good job I think of living authentically. and they're the same person for better and for worse in the different spheres of their life. And I think it's easier. Cause then you just be yourself. And if you've got rough edges, then work on your rough edges.
Aaron (35:03): In all categories
Jon (35:03): Don't just become better for your wife, become better for your kids and for your employees or your boss. Become a better person. And then just be that.
Aaron (35:13): Yes. And be that. So maybe that's a good closing for the moment is figure out who you are. Don't hide it from the world. Go offer that to the world. Don't attempt to figure out what the world would like, but instead be you. Be the best version of you so that we in turn can also receive the best version of you. Which feeds into one of my favorite quotes, basically the short of it is our greatest fear isn't that we're terrible and horrible. It's that we're glorious and powerful and that, by us being the best version of us, it actually elicits other people to do the same. Cuz it lets them be brave as well.
(36:08): So I'll make sure it ends up in the show notes of this, the quote, but it's a great beautiful quote that says, actually, you know what at the end of the day, we're most afraid of our glory. Not the train wreck that we fear we are. But if we actually just go for it, live into the best version of ourselves, it actually gives other people permission to do the same. Because it's scary. It's easier for you and I to talk about right now social media cause it's not personal, right now you're a little Sabbath. It's a little personal. I turn it off my phone. But when we actually talk about how pervasive it is, what our core beliefs about it is, and what it does to our family and communication, that's another layer of personal That a lot of times I don't wanna share. I'd rather keep it at the up level because some of it is, I'm afraid, some of it is, I don't want to actually stand right without any clothes on.
Jon (37:06): And be honest about what doesn't go so well
Aaron (37:09): And what I'm not very good at. What I'm afraid about. So let's go ahead and wrap it up now and we may flip it on again here in a few minutes and talk through a different topic. But I think this is Jon and I's great experiment.
Jon (37:24): And let us know what you think.
Aaron (37:26): All two of you,
Jon (37:27): Both of you, if you get to this point Send us an email. I mean I just end with that quote from, from while at heart, where he was quoting John was quoting. don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive and go do that. Because what the world needs are people who are fully alive. What if we took that to heart in every area of our life?
Aaron (37:51): I love it. All right, I'm gonna read on that same note. I'm gonna go ahead and read this. Greatest fear. So our deepest fear, it is our light and not our darkness that most frightens us. Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, and fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You're a child of God. You're playing small does not serve the world. There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We were born to make men manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us, it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our present presence automatically liberates others. Maryanne Williamson.
Jon (39:02): Ah, that's so good. So here's what you should do. Hit that little 30-second rewind button twice. Listen to that a few more times and just pretend for a day that it's true.
Aaron (39:12): Thank you for listening to today's podcast episode. For more information, please go to aaronmchugh.com. That's Aaron, a a r o n, McHugh, M C H U G H. There you'll find my blog writings, as well as other podcasts, focused on getting the most out of work life and play. And until next time, keep going.
*We’ve done our best for this transcription to accurately reflect the conversation. Errors are possible. Thank you for your patience and grace if you find errors that our team missed.
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